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北京时间2001年9月1日（星期六）10:00-12:00。
嘉宾：Alistair Cockburn。世界顶级OO专家，全球软件业最杰出的技术与书籍的奖项 Jolt Productivity Award的获奖书籍“Writing Effective Use Cases”的作者，此书草稿可在此下载：http://www.umlforum.com/zippdf/writingeffectiveucs.zip 。著有的著名书籍文章还有：
“Surviving Object-Oriented Projects” 数据挖掘实验室
“Software Development as a Cooperative Game”
“Structuring Use Case with Goals” 数据挖掘研究院
交流重点：OO，项目管理。 数据挖掘研究院
umlchina对acockburn说: hi, professor, so early! I have not had my breakfast yet!(09:09) 数据挖掘研究院
acockburn对大家说: We said 19:00, and it is 19:00 here in Salt Lake City - is it really only 9:00 there?(09:12)
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: Glad to see you, Mr. Acockburn(09:12) 数据挖掘工具
acockburn对大家说: If you want, I have a lot of work to do - I can go and do work for another hour and come back then(09:13) 数据挖掘研究院
xkfy对大家说: hi,professor,it"s glad to meet you(09:13) 数据挖掘实验室
umlchina对acockburn说: Yes, please be busy with your work first and come back 30 mins later?(09:14)
acockburn对umlchina说: Ok. I have only 2 hours I can be here. So I shall come back in 30 minutes and be here for 2 hours then. Is that OK?(09:15)
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: It"s 9 o"clock morning now in China(09:15) 数据挖掘工具
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: We will wait you until 10:00(09:15) 数据挖掘交友
acockburn对qingzuozhou说: Ah, then we did our math wrong - we though 1900 here would be 1000 there.(09:15) 数据挖掘研究院
acockburn对qingzuozhou说: OK. I shall be back at 10:00 your time. bye...(09:16) 数据挖掘实验室
xkfy对acockburn说: wait for you(09:17) 数据挖掘论坛
qingzuozhou对umlchina说: you are the president here, you should prepare some questions to ask Mr. Acockburn(09:18) 数据挖掘实验室
qingzuozhou对umlchina说: then we can read the talk words while we are talking with Mr. Acockburn(09:19) 数据挖掘交友
xkfy对umlchina说: we need inform more people,i"ll post something on our BBS(09:19)
fuzhong对大家说: Can you speak chinese?(09:21)
qingzuozhou对umlchina说: yes, xkfy is right . you should post the ad. on some popular website(09:21) 数据挖掘工具
fuzhong对大家说: Mr Alistair Cockburn is here?(09:24) 数据挖掘实验室
qingzuozhou对umlchina说: I think you also should be a intepreter with some guys from China who speak Chinese and their English are not very good(09:24) 数据挖掘交友
xkfy对umlchina说: i"d glad to be the intepreter,if umlchina agree(09:28) 数据挖掘工具
qingzuozhou对xkfy说: good(09:29) 数据挖掘研究院
umlchina对xkfy说: thank you! It is great!(09:29)
nix00000对大家说: 一会专家来吗？(09:59)
qingzuozhou对busy_girl说: I feel that you are not very farmiliar with UML(10:00) 数据挖掘研究院
hdw1978对大家说: hi all!(10:00) 数据挖掘工具
busy_girl对qingzuozhou说: why?(10:00)
macson对大家说: when will Alistair Cockburn come?(10:00) 数据挖掘工具
nix00000微笑着对大家说: 今天是不是有一个OO专家来？？？？？？？？(10:00) 数据挖掘论坛
qingzuozhou对busy_girl说: only studied it from book and no enperiences with UML in projects(10:00) 数据挖掘论坛
chenf对大家说: 谁迟到了(10:00) 数据挖掘研究院
chenf对大家说: 专家还来吗？(10:01)
nix00000微笑着对大家说: 专家来了吧？(10:02) 数据挖掘实验室
busy_girl对qingzuozhou说: but i modeling a system with it(10:02) 数据挖掘工具
umlchina对大家说: 谢谢大家光临，cockburn先生一会就到，刚才他搞错时间来早了，先离开一会(10:02) 数据挖掘工具
nix00000微笑着对大家说: 一起学OO与UML吧。欢迎来Q 69559361(10:02) 数据挖掘研究院
acockburn对umlchina说: Hello again(10:02) 数据挖掘工具
wangyuanjian微笑着对bucolic说: thanks.i have already sent out an email.(10:03) 数据挖掘研究院
qingzuozhou对busy_girl说: Hi, it"s 10:00 in China. Mr. Acockburn here?(10:03) 数据挖掘工具
macson对大家说: how to model a system with rotional?(10:03) 数据挖掘工具
umlchina对大家说: 聊天颜色约定：(10:03) 数据挖掘交友
nix00000微笑着对大家说: hello, acockburn(10:03) 数据挖掘研究院
qingzuozhou对大家说: Hi, it"s 10:00 in China. Mr. Acockburn here??(10:03) 数据挖掘实验室
hdw1978对大家说: Hmm, what"s the topic today?(10:04) 数据挖掘工具
acockburn对umlchina说: Yes, He"s here, good morning everyone(10:04) 数据挖掘实验室
fuzhong对大家说: Good moring.(10:04) 数据挖掘交友
nix00000微笑着对acockburn说: Can you tell us how to build use cases in a project?(10:04)
nix00000微笑着对acockburn说: How to build it effectively(10:04)
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: hi, it"s liveliness at this room now!(10:04) 数据挖掘工具
nix00000微笑着对acockburn说: thanks(10:04)
busy_girl很高兴地对大家说: 欢迎！啪啪啪啪啪啪啪……(10:05) 数据挖掘工具
triol对acockburn说: welcome!(10:05) 数据挖掘研究院
umlchina对大家说: 提问及参与讨论：草原之蓝,嘉宾回答和主持人发言：正宗喜红,互相说话：绝对黑色(10:05) 数据挖掘交友
acockburn对nix00000说: You mean you would like me to rewrite my book online during this chat session?(10:05) 数据挖掘工具
umlchina对大家说: please talk in english!(10:05) 数据挖掘研究院
wangyuanjian微笑着对bucolic说: maybe on the way.(10:05) 数据挖掘实验室
macson对大家说: very slowly(10:06) 数据挖掘工具
acockburn对nix00000说: How about we start with some simple questions, and find where the questions should go to..(10:06) 数据挖掘研究院
nix00000微笑着对acockburn说: :-), No, In my practice, I am often confused by the use case.(10:06)
nix00000微笑着对acockburn说: I don"t know how to devide the whole function of business into effective use case.(10:06)
altob对大家说: hello(10:06) 数据挖掘交友
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: Can you tell us the differences between using UML for projects and products?(10:06)
fuzhong对大家说: Mr. acockburn ,how can I abstract the use cases and the actors .(10:06) 数据挖掘研究院
umlchina对acockburn说: I have a question: We make many mistake when using use cases, what is the most common mistake which we development teams make?(10:07)
acockburn对nix00000说: Topic:Use Cases: A use case is a text story describing what a system should do for a person(10:07) 数据挖掘工具
nix00000微笑着对acockburn说: Ok, Can you tell us how long do you in this field.(10:07) 数据挖掘工具
fuzhong对大家说: Mr. acockburn ,how can I abstract the use cases and the actors .((10:07) 数据挖掘实验室
acockburn对umlchina说: The most common mistake is to make them too detailed(10:07) 数据挖掘交友
acockburn对umlchina说: People put the UI design into the use case (I"ll write UC for use case)(10:08) 数据挖掘交友
acockburn对umlchina说: ...and that is wrong. There isa UI designer who should read the UC and then design the UI fromthat.(10:08) 数据挖掘实验室
acockburn对umlchina说: If you put the UI design into the UC, then the use case is not REQUIREMENTS, it is a description of the screen.(10:08)
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: how does the use cases be optimized?(10:09) 数据挖掘论坛
acockburn对umlchina说: A use case is sort of a story. I have never written one with more than 9 steps in it.(10:09) 数据挖掘研究院
hdw1978对大家说: but sometimes, user asked for "beautiful UI"(10:09) 数据挖掘工具
boss_ch对大家说: any tools for UI design ?(10:09)
acockburn对umlchina说: If you have more than 9 steps, then either the user iterface design is showing up or the steps are too detailed.(10:09) 数据挖掘实验室
acockburn对umlchina说: I find that almost every company I visit has long, detailed, boring use caess.(10:10) 数据挖掘论坛
xkfy对大家说: something is wrong?(10:10)
acockburn对hdw1978说: Right. "Beautiful UI" - Ask yourself - whose job is that?(10:10)
acockburn对hdw1978说: I s that the job of the person writing the *behavioral requirements* for the system, ...(10:11) 数据挖掘论坛
hdw1978对acockburn说: So, you mean the UC is someway the function module?(10:11) 数据挖掘论坛
acockburn对hdw1978说: ...or is that the job of a person who read a short description of what the system must "do", and who then designs a beautiful UI design.(10:11) 数据挖掘交友
acockburn对hdw1978说: ...the point is, that UI design is "design". use cases are for "requirements"(10:11)
nix00000微笑着对acockburn说: How to devide the big use case, what is the idea?(10:11) 数据挖掘工具
acockburn对hdw1978说: ...don"t put design into the requirements. keep the requirements for only what "must" be there.(10:12) 数据挖掘工具
acockburn对hdw1978说: A use case is like a function module, but *as seen from the user"s side*(10:12) 数据挖掘工具
fuzhong对大家说: Yes.(10:12) 数据挖掘工具
acockburn对hdw1978说: Ask: What is the user really trying to *accomplish*?(10:12) 数据挖掘论坛
hdw1978对acockburn说: don"t you think the UI design must comply the require?(10:13) 数据挖掘实验室
bucolic对acockburn说: how many uses in a system is appropriate?(10:13) 数据挖掘交友
acockburn对hdw1978说: Write one use case to show a user using the system to accomplish something relevant and important to them.(10:13) 数据挖掘论坛
smilingleo对acockburn说: when the UC was done , what step will be the next?(10:13) 数据挖掘研究院
acockburn对hdw1978说: Therefore, the name of the use case must be a VERB phrase, saying what someone wants to accomplish.(10:13) 数据挖掘实验室
hdw1978对acockburn说: use the UC to construct a "black-box" ?(10:13)
acockburn对hdw1978说: Yes, let"s stay on this topic for a bit, it is a good one. the UI design must comply withthe re(10:14) 数据挖掘实验室
acockburn对hdw1978说: The distinction I wish to pass along is the distinction between Requirements and Design.(10:14) 数据挖掘研究院
nix00000微笑着对acockburn说: Mr. burn, I think if you can give a sample, that we can understand well.(10:14) 数据挖掘交友
fuzhong对acockburn说: I know some knowledge,and can you(10:15) 数据挖掘研究院
acockburn对hdw1978说: Requirements means the system MUST have it.(10:15) 数据挖掘论坛
acockburn对hdw1978说: Design means the designers CHOOSE it.(10:15) 数据挖掘实验室
fuzhong对acockburn说: ensample ?(10:15)
acockburn对hdw1978说: It is a matter of who gets to make the decision.(10:15) 数据挖掘工具
nix00000对acockburn说: How about the mine game in Windows?(10:15)
bucolic对acockburn说: sometime the user don"t know the requirement clearly, when show them the UI, he will give some good suggestions.how to resolved it.(10:15) 数据挖掘工具
fuzhong对acockburn说: I know some knowledge,and can you ensample ?(10:15)
acockburn对hdw1978说: (Yes, make the system a black box, and never refer to what its internal structure is)(10:15) 数据挖掘工具
nix00000对acockburn说: If you have such a project to write, how do write the use case?(10:15)
acockburn对hdw1978说: Good questions, all.(10:16) 数据挖掘研究院
acockburn对hdw1978说: Let"s back up... the way to find the answers to your questions is to ask this:(10:16) 数据挖掘论坛
kt133对大家说: But what the sequence diagram and collabration diagram should do?Mr acock?(10:16) 数据挖掘交友
acockburn对hdw1978说: ...WHO gets to make the decision?(10:16) 数据挖掘研究院
umlchina对acockburn说: "Design means the designers CHOOSE it","Requirements means the system MUST have it",So great!!(10:16) 数据挖掘交友
acockburn对hdw1978说: (Leave out UML, Rose, and all diagrams for a minute... if you don"t know what you are trying to express, they can"t help you)(10:16) 数据挖掘实验室
hdw1978对acockburn说: requirement is the job of analysis, so analysis can"t mixed with design?(10:17) 数据挖掘实验室
acockburn对hdw1978说: Step 1: you ask some users and some sponsors (the people with the money) what they would like the system to do.(10:17) 数据挖掘研究院
acockburn对hdw1978说: Step 2. They tell you. Those are now Requirements.(10:17) 数据挖掘交友
acockburn对hdw1978说: Step 3. But they don"t really know the meaning of what they asked for.(10:17) 数据挖掘实验室
bucolic对acockburn说: sponsors is stalkhold?(10:18)
acockburn对hdw1978说: ...so you build some prototypes, or draw pictures on papers, and help them understand what their choices are allowed to be.(10:18) 数据挖掘实验室
ee96pyg对大家说: How can I get a full version of <writing effective use case>? Not draft in UMLChina.com!(10:18) 数据挖掘论坛
acockburn对hdw1978说: (Yes sponsor is stakeholder)(10:18) 数据挖掘实验室
acockburn对hdw1978说: Step 2-3 repeat, you and the user/sponsor go back and forth deciding what the system should do.(10:19) 数据挖掘研究院
bucolic对acockburn说: if I build some prototypes, it means I will begin a UI design?(10:19) 数据挖掘论坛
acockburn对hdw1978说: Step 4. OK, for some portion of the requirements, you and they finally are in agreement as to what the system should do.(10:19) 数据挖掘论坛
nix00000对acockburn说: Your text is like the book said, BUT, can you give us a detail sample? Mr, burn.(10:19) 数据挖掘交友
acockburn对hdw1978说: ...Now two types of designers get started working. The UI designer and the program designer.(10:20) 数据挖掘论坛
acockburn对hdw1978说: Step 4A. The UI designer works out an easy-to-learn, fast-to-use UI design that the users can accept and use.(10:20) 数据挖掘工具
bucolic对acockburn说: then should I keep the UI confirmed by customer?or just the requirement?(10:20) 数据挖掘交友
fuzhong对acockburn说: I want to do in some projects with you,so I think I will learn muck.(10:20) 数据挖掘交友
hdw1978对acockburn说: but, during prototype building, some design(may be small) have been made!(10:21)
busy_girl很高兴地对acockburn说: What is the arm of modeling?is requirement or code?(10:21) 数据挖掘交友
acockburn对hdw1978说: Step 4B. The program designer starts working on the internal structure of the program.(10:21) 数据挖掘研究院
acockburn对hdw1978说: (If my text now is just like the book, then you will know that there are many examples in the book, and I can ask you to read those)(10:21)
smilingleo对acockburn说: You mean the programmer can start working at once, when the prototype was completed just now?(10:21)
nix00000对ee96pyg说: 什么意思？(10:22)
acockburn对bucolic说: Yes, doing prototypes IS doing UI design. and there is nothing wrong with doing it with the users(10:22) 数据挖掘论坛
acockburn对bucolic说: ...or showing them to the users and learning what they like and don"t like.(10:22) 数据挖掘研究院
acockburn对bucolic说: ...They also get to finally accept or reject that design, since they are going to use it.(10:23)
acockburn对bucolic说: ...Some friends of mine say that "acceptance tests" are the final requirements!(10:23) 数据挖掘论坛
smilingleo对acockburn说: If so , what time to do with detail design?(10:23)
acockburn对bucolic说: Back to use cases, for a moment... they record the UI-independent description of what the system must do, so the UI design(10:24) 数据挖掘研究院
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: what"s the standards for fihishing a UC? ?(10:24) 数据挖掘交友
bucolic对acockburn说: if I get the correct requirement with ptototypes, how I deal with the prototypes?(10:24) 数据挖掘实验室
acockburn对bucolic说: ...can change, even while the descirption of what the system must do stays constant.(10:24) 数据挖掘实验室
bucolic对acockburn说: abandon it? or reuse it in the next design?(10:24)
acockburn对bucolic说: I like to do everything concurrently.(10:25) 数据挖掘工具
acockburn对bucolic说: First, enough requirements to understand what the users are aiming at.(10:26) 数据挖掘论坛
acockburn对bucolic说: Then some paper prototyping, or programming prototyping, so give them and me some feedback ...(10:26) 数据挖掘研究院
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: how can you evaluate a good UC or bad UC?(10:26) 数据挖掘交友
se_cn对acockburn说: hello(10:26)
acockburn对bucolic说: ... as to what they just asked for, so see if that"s what they want.(10:26)
bucolic对acockburn说: acceptance tests, it means I have implemented the requirements? then customer make a acceptance test(10:26) 数据挖掘工具
acockburn对bucolic说: At that point, we have done some requirements, some UI design, some program design.(10:26) 数据挖掘交友
acockburn对bucolic说: Once the users are happy, both the UI designer and the programmer have a lot of work to do...(10:27)
acockburn对bucolic说: ... so the user can move onto specifying another part of the system with another pair of people.(10:27) 数据挖掘研究院
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: I see. But I know many UCs is not useful for Design. how can we avoid that?(10:28) 数据挖掘研究院
acockburn对bucolic说: Detailed design happens once the program designer gets serious about making the design work.(10:28)
acockburn对bucolic说: You can either throw the prototypes away - if they were no good, or keep them, if they are good.(10:28)
acockburn对bucolic说: A use case is finished in one of two ways, depending on a small project.(10:28) 数据挖掘研究院
acockburn对bucolic说: For a small, local project, it is finished - no matter how messy it is - when everyone understands what it is trying to express.(10:29)
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: about the detail level for a UC, can you give me a suggestion?(10:29) 数据挖掘工具
fuzhong对acockburn说: When you think about the OO,you do not think about the programing language?Sorry,i"m pool in English.(10:29) 数据挖掘研究院
acockburn对bucolic说: On a large, complicated project (military, some financial instutions), it is finished when(10:29) 数据挖掘论坛
kt133对acockburn说: what the sequence diagram should do properly?And not too detail?(10:29) 数据挖掘实验室
acockburn对bucolic说: A) the list of use case names list all the goals the users have(10:29)
bucolic对acockburn说: if separate the UI designer and system designer ,how do they work it smoothly?(10:29) 数据挖掘研究院
acockburn对bucolic说: B) each use case captures all the error conditions that can arise during its operation.(10:30)
fuzhong对acockburn说: If someone is not skill in program language,can he design with OO?(10:30) 数据挖掘研究院
bucolic对acockburn说: the list inculde the stakeholder"s requests?(10:30) 数据挖掘研究院
acockburn对bucolic说: You need as many use cases as there are desires the users have for the system. Exactly that many.(10:30) 数据挖掘工具
acockburn对bucolic说: How many is that? Well, different for different systems. 20 or 70 is OK. I worked on one with 200.(10:31) 数据挖掘论坛
acockburn对bucolic说: I know people who have worked on some systems with 1,000 (yikes!)(10:31) 数据挖掘研究院
ee96pyg对大家说: Can you tell me some keywords about the evolution of method to capture system?(10:31) 数据挖掘论坛
bucolic对acockburn说: yeah ,in fact , the error condition can be list completly.(10:31) 数据挖掘研究院
ee96pyg对acockburn说: : Can you tell me some keywords about the evolution of method to capture system(10:32)
bucolic对acockburn说: sorry can"t list(10:32) 数据挖掘交友
acockburn对fuzhong说: Let"s leave use cases for a little while. You have the book online there.(10:32) 数据挖掘工具
rjcludy对acockburn说: Can you tell me how to juge the user case"s granularity is good? thank you.(10:32) 数据挖掘交友
nix00000对acockburn说: You mean that We should finish a use case and then begin another?(10:32) 数据挖掘工具
acockburn对fuzhong说: TOPIC, OO DESIGN: It is actually hard to design without knowing the OO language.(10:32)
nix00000对acockburn说: You mean that We should finish a use case and then begin another?((10:33) 数据挖掘研究院
acockburn对fuzhong说: I program in Smalltalk, and some amount in C++, and not much in Java, and not at all in CLOS.(10:33) 数据挖掘交友
unlchina对大家说: finish the meeting, everyone(10:33) 数据挖掘交友
fuzhong对acockburn说: Why?(10:33) 数据挖掘交友
umlchina对大家说: unlchina is not umlchina, please(10:33) 数据挖掘工具
bucolic对acockburn说: yeah, the use cases"s amount is relative with the code of line?(10:33) 数据挖掘工具
acockburn对fuzhong说: My can design a good Smalltalk design, a medium C++ design, a mediocre Java design and a crummy CLOS design.(10:33) 数据挖掘论坛
acockburn对fuzhong说: It is like building a building with different materials.(10:34)
acockburn对fuzhong说: If you know how to work with bricks or with concrete and steel.(10:34)
nix00000对acockburn说: Please answer my question.(10:34)
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: if I develop a software product, the requirment is from myself or my knowledge. at this situation, how about the UC?(10:34) 数据挖掘交友
acockburn对fuzhong说: The shapes of buildings you design with the different materials is very different.(10:34) 数据挖掘交友
hacker_jiang对大家说: why does nobody speak?(10:35) 数据挖掘实验室
am2000对大家说: ??(10:35)
xkfy对acockburn说: can you comment at the project management in the ERP(10:35) 数据挖掘研究院
hdw1978对acockburn说: so one must master many language to deal with all kinds of projects?(10:35) 数据挖掘工具
fuzhong对acockburn说: The shapes of buildings you design with the different materials is very different??(10:35) 数据挖掘工具
fuzhong对acockburn说: What is the materials ?(10:36) 数据挖掘交友
acockburn对nix00000说: NIX - we spent a lot of time on use cases.... now let"s talk about design for a bit.(10:36) 数据挖掘工具
bucolic对acockburn说: and the size of building? I means if smalltalk can make a huge system, but other language can"t?(10:36) 数据挖掘工具
kt133对acockburn说: but how to use uml to design the project using jsp,php...these b/s ?(10:36) 数据挖掘研究院
acockburn对fuzhong说: Buildings... please look around your city. Some buildings are brick, some wood, some concrete, steel and glass.(10:37)
acockburn对fuzhong说: Their shapes are quite different.(10:37) 数据挖掘论坛
fuzhong对acockburn说: I see.(10:37) 数据挖掘工具
nix00000对acockburn说: Ok, go on, I am just watching.(10:37) 数据挖掘实验室
bucolic对acockburn说: or if can builder , but it"s not as robust as smalltalk?(10:37) 数据挖掘交友
dyfjt微笑着对acockburn说: I am a beginner of UML.I do not know how and when to do from analysis to design.what should i do?Can you help me?i see my question is very fool,but i need..(10:37)
acockburn对fuzhong说: In fact the very possibility of what shape building you can build depends very much on what material you choose to use.(10:37)
acockburn对fuzhong说: Similarly, scuptors use different materials: clay, stone, others.(10:38) 数据挖掘论坛
hdw1978对acockburn说: I think java is the material that can build everything(10:38) 数据挖掘研究院
acockburn对fuzhong说: When someone decides to work from a block of marble, they must be very careful to arrange the weight and thickness carefully,(10:38) 数据挖掘论坛
ee96pyg对acockburn说: I want to know which fields the ideas of use case have come from.(10:38) 数据挖掘实验室
acockburn对fuzhong说: so that the piece holds together.(10:38) 数据挖掘实验室
bucolic对acockburn说: if I use a robust meterial, the building will be robust. and programing?(10:38) 数据挖掘交友
fuzhong对acockburn说: design can ignore language?(10:39)
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: when the initial design is finished, progrmmers begin to code for it. but programmers find many unfitting in design. how can I do for that?(10:39) 数据挖掘论坛
acockburn对fuzhong说: When someone builds a metal armature or mesh, and then adds clay to it, they can make many changes very fast, and create completely different shapes with it.(10:39) 数据挖掘研究院
bucolic对acockburn说: I means diffenent program language(10:39) 数据挖掘交友
acockburn对fuzhong说: OK, back to software.(10:39)
acockburn对fuzhong说: C++ is a brittle material, like stone.(10:39) 数据挖掘实验室
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: changed my design or ask programmers change his mind?(10:39) 数据挖掘工具
acockburn对fuzhong说: Your class hierarchy has to be carefully desgned. You cannot change it easily.(10:40) 数据挖掘实验室
acockburn对fuzhong说: There are particular inheritance rules.(10:40) 数据挖掘论坛
acockburn对fuzhong说: The result is a particular sort of design, very common across C++ programs.(10:40)
acockburn对fuzhong说: Smalltalk, on the other hand, is like clay - very easy to change.(10:40) 数据挖掘实验室
bucolic对acockburn说: which language do you perfer? smalltalk?(10:40)
acockburn对fuzhong说: People who write in Smalltalk changes their designs all the time.(10:40)
acockburn对fuzhong说: Also, there are few rules about the inheritance hierarchy, so the structure is different.(10:41)
acockburn对fuzhong说: Java is a combination of Smalltalk and C++, so the design shape is somewhere in between(10:41) 数据挖掘研究院
acockburn对fuzhong说: CLOS has even looser rules that Smalltalk. and so on.(10:41) 数据挖掘交友
acockburn对fuzhong说: This is the long answer to your questions, about "Can someone who doesn"t know the language do an OO design?"(10:42)
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: different language need different design? for example C++ and Java?(10:42)
xiang2ky微笑着对acockburn说: so what about c#?(10:42)
rjcludy对acockburn说: Can u tell me how to juge the user case"s granularity is best? thank you very much.(10:42) 数据挖掘论坛
acockburn对qingzuozhou说: Good question. All designs have mistakes in them.(10:42)
umlchina对acockburn说: In a visual modeling tool, such as Rational Rose, we can not put the system boundary box on the use-case diagram. system boundary is totally missing from the diagram. Is(10:43) 数据挖掘工具
umlchina对acockburn说: it a right choice?(10:43) 数据挖掘工具
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: tell us something about that(10:43)
acockburn对qingzuozhou说: If you set up your project team so that a master "designer" makes all the decisions, and a programmer "only" programs them, then...(10:43)
fuzhong对acockburn说: Thanks.(10:43) 数据挖掘论坛
rick1126对大家说: hi, first come here(10:43) 数据挖掘研究院
acockburn对qingzuozhou说: ...the programmer will discover the designer"s mistake, but not be able to fix them.(10:43) 数据挖掘交友
acockburn对qingzuozhou说: For that reason, I prefer to have each person responsible for their own design AND programmintg.(10:44) 数据挖掘工具
bucolic对acockburn说: it means designer should do some programing?(10:44)
zwweric微笑着对大家说: Could you say something about testing?About Auto-Testing?I"m sorry.My english is pool!(10:45) 数据挖掘研究院
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: then one have two or more role(10:45) 数据挖掘论坛
acockburn对qingzuozhou说: Then, when the programmer finds the design mistake he(she) simply fixes it.(10:45) 数据挖掘研究院
bucolic对acockburn说: but how to assure the design of different person work smoothly(10:45) 数据挖掘研究院
品雪对acockburn说: would you like tell me why you disagree rational method so much?(10:45) 数据挖掘研究院
acockburn对qingzuozhou说: Yes, it means the designer should do some programming. I have never worked on a project which had a pure "designer" who did not program.(10:45)
dystudy对大家说: How to talk to with uers,I feel trouble when i talk to wiht user(10:45) 数据挖掘论坛
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: but that is not accord with the requirement of CMM(10:45) 数据挖掘研究院
acockburn对qingzuozhou说: I have heard about such projects, but I have not heard good news about such projects.(10:46) 数据挖掘实验室
fuzhong对umlchina说: 请你帮忙.有个问题我翻译不出:就是国外在10年或者20年前或者更长时间,软件行业是种什么状况?(10:46)
xkfy对acockburn说: but we need the master(10:46) 数据挖掘实验室
bucolic对acockburn说: in fact in a big system it"s impossible one people to finish it.(10:46) 数据挖掘实验室
acockburn对qingzuozhou说: There are just too many strange mistakes to make and it takes the programmer too long to explain them to the designer.(10:46)
umlchina对acockburn说: In a modeling tool such as Rational Rose, we can"t put the system boundary box on a use-case diagram. system boundary is missing from the diagram. Is it a right choice?(10:46) 数据挖掘论坛
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: yes. when diffrenet role for diffrenent people, it"s hard to control for the project.(10:47) 数据挖掘交友
bucolic对acockburn说: maybe design and program with same person is a method of XP?(10:47) 数据挖掘实验室
acockburn对qingzuozhou说: What we do with senior designer/programmers, is give them the hardest part of teh system to design, and have them check the work of teh junior designer/programmers.(10:47)
fuzhong对umlchina说: 比如软件开发过程?(10:47) 数据挖掘研究院
dyfjt微笑着对acockburn说: as a beginner,need i learn UML with RUP??(10:47) 数据挖掘论坛
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: but many management ask that!(10:47)
dystudy对acockburn说: How to talk to with uers,I feel trouble when i talk to wiht user(10:47)
品雪对umlchina说: I think you just can do that. Try to customize your toolbar(10:47) 数据挖掘实验室
fuzhong对umlchina说: 呵呵,试试.(10:47) 数据挖掘交友
dyfjt微笑着对acockburn说: can you help me ?(10:48) 数据挖掘研究院
acockburn对qingzuozhou说: And then give the junior designer/programmers smaller,simpler pieces of the system to design and program.(10:48)
zwweric微笑着对acockburn说: could you say something about Rational Robot?(10:48) 数据挖掘交友
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: I think you are very right.(10:48) 数据挖掘工具
acockburn对qingzuozhou说: Yes, I disagree with the CMM quite a bit (and with the use of UML, too :-)(10:48) 数据挖掘工具
bucolic对acockburn说: samller ,simpler pieces, piece can relative with use case , 1 by 1?(10:49) 数据挖掘论坛
acockburn对qingzuozhou说: So there ought to be quite a topic there!(10:49) 数据挖掘交友
nix00000对acockburn说: How to cooperate each other?(10:49) 数据挖掘研究院
acockburn对qingzuozhou说: I have the thought that programming is a skill and a craft, like any other... sewing (tailoring), building, painting, woodworking...(10:50) 数据挖掘实验室
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: when I join project , I often be confused by some standards such as CMM/ISO9001(10:50) 数据挖掘实验室
acockburn对qingzuozhou说: The successful project teams I visit are built around the skills of the individuals,and their teamwork(10:50) 数据挖掘论坛
acockburn对qingzuozhou说: If you don"t have good enough skills on the team, no amount of CMM process or UML modeling will save the project.(10:50) 数据挖掘工具
bucolic对acockburn说: with psp and tsp to build a good team?(10:51) 数据挖掘实验室
acockburn对qingzuozhou说: On the other hand, if the people do have the skills, then they need only a tiny bit of process and UML modeling.(10:51) 数据挖掘实验室
acockburn对qingzuozhou说: Both process and modeling are useful... but best in small quantities.(10:51) 数据挖掘研究院
acockburn对qingzuozhou说: Therefore, I don"t object to the UML notation... but I do object when managers think that they can replace program design with just teh UML model.(10:52)
fuzhong对acockburn说: I have another question.Why The SA(Structure Analyse ) past and OO now come into being on broad not in Chinese?(10:52) 数据挖掘工具
bucolic对acockburn说: modeling is served with implement , if you have good implement, no need for moduling?(10:52) 数据挖掘实验室
fuzhong对acockburn说: This is about the Software Condition.(10:52) 数据挖掘论坛
jambol对acockburn说: Is it necessary that software engineer become domain expert when designs and analyse?(10:53) 数据挖掘交友
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: I see, your points help me a lot(10:53) 数据挖掘论坛
ee96pyg对acockburn说: Please introduce some characters of sucessful teams you feel.(10:53) 数据挖掘交友
acockburn对ee96pyg说: Hi, could you explain that question about SA and OO a bit more?(10:53)
nix00000对acockburn说: You mean everyone in the team should have enough skills about modeling?(10:53)
acockburn对ee96pyg说: OK,NEW TOPIC: Characters on successful team.(10:53) 数据挖掘论坛
ee96pyg对acockburn说: oo have memory then have life(10:54) 数据挖掘研究院
ee96pyg对acockburn说: for what?(10:54) 数据挖掘工具
ee96pyg对acockburn说: SA for what?(10:54) 数据挖掘交友
acockburn对ee96pyg说: #1. If you don"t have someone who has succeeded with some project before, it is much harder to succeed with this project.(10:55) 数据挖掘工具
nix00000对acockburn说: They all have good skills!!!(10:55) 数据挖掘交友
品雪对acockburn说: ... tehn, would you like introduce your methodology for us?(10:55) 数据挖掘交友
bucolic对acockburn说: experence is very important?(10:55) 数据挖掘研究院
acockburn对ee96pyg说: A person who has succeeded before remembers how they got around the problems last time.(10:55) 数据挖掘论坛
acockburn对ee96pyg说: So this is a most important person to have on the team.(10:55)
fuzhong对acockburn说: I think technology has be there now and then,Why they be found on broad.I says this ,because I want to know How can I do so that I can stand ahead.(10:56) 数据挖掘工具
acockburn对ee96pyg说: For small projects, this person is usually the Team Lead, does the most difficult part of the design,(10:56) 数据挖掘论坛
hdw1978对大家说: what if there are two person succeeded but have different experience?(10:56) 数据挖掘实验室
acockburn对ee96pyg说: ...watches the quality of work of the otherpeople, negotiates with the users,(10:56) 数据挖掘工具
bucolic对acockburn说: in fact in china we are short of those important persons(10:56) 数据挖掘实验室
acockburn对ee96pyg说: ... builds the schedules... and doesn"t get much sleep.(10:56) 数据挖掘交友
acockburn对ee96pyg说: If you have two of these people, then the load is not so terrible. Otherwise this person works 60-90 hours each week.(10:57) 数据挖掘论坛
ee96pyg对ee96pyg说: thanks, i am listening(10:57) 数据挖掘交友
acockburn对ee96pyg说: If you have such a person, then you give him(her) a few medium or beginning people to help.(10:57) 数据挖掘工具
acockburn对ee96pyg说: Notice the skills development.(10:57) 数据挖掘论坛
bucolic对acockburn说: sometime if one has to management the project, he will lost the time to make design, how to resolve?(10:57) 数据挖掘工具
charles_y对acockburn说: How we can still get start when we get no person who has succeded before ,or if has experience before?(10:57) 数据挖掘论坛
acockburn对ee96pyg说: If you have a smart, inexperienced person, this person will learn fast, and soon(10:58)
acockburn对ee96pyg说: become a medum-experienced person and be quite helpful.(10:58) 数据挖掘研究院
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: I have another question . how to use OO technology to relace the old system. for example, I have a system developed before. now I want to upgrade to new platform with OO(10:58)
acockburn对ee96pyg说: If you are unlucky, and no one is experienced, then the smartest or fastest person will grow the fastest and become the technical leader.(10:58) 数据挖掘工具
acockburn对ee96pyg说: You will have to develop such a person.(10:59)
acockburn对ee96pyg说: Question: how to reduce the load on the Team Lead?... answer, assign as many other things to other people as possible.(10:59) 数据挖掘实验室
hdw1978对大家说: A team without a leader will doomed to fail?(10:59) 数据挖掘论坛
acockburn对ee96pyg说: Find a project manager to watch schedules, inter-person dependencies, money, furniture.(11:00) 数据挖掘研究院
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: if rewrite all code , the cost is too high. if not , how reuse the old results?(11:00) 数据挖掘实验室
acockburn对ee96pyg说: Assign pieces of work to people who are just learning... even if they are 3 times as slow, sometimes the project will still go better.(11:00)
fuzhong对acockburn说: Some books says that the interest is very important in software,how the conditions on broad,and how do they work?I want to talk about Project Manage.(11:00) 数据挖掘交友
bucolic对acockburn说: it means the team leader is the same person as project manager?(11:01) 数据挖掘论坛
acockburn对hdw1978说: If there is no experienced person, then you really are relying on the inexperienced people to invent their way to success.(11:01) 数据挖掘交友
acockburn对hdw1978说: This does happen, but not as often as the opposite... that the people just go around and around, without producing something.(11:02) 数据挖掘实验室
bucolic对acockburn说: can follow the way recorded in the book?(11:02) 数据挖掘工具
acockburn对hdw1978说: This is the hazard of too much modeling... you can happily model for 6 months, and never know that the design won"t work.(11:02) 数据挖掘实验室
acockburn对hdw1978说: Better to build a small piece right away, and find if it will or won"t work.(11:02) 数据挖掘研究院
ee96pyg对acockburn说: Thank you very much(11:02) 数据挖掘工具
acockburn对bucolic说: My book Surviving Object Oriented Project tells of what I learned by interviewing about 20 project teams,(11:03) 数据挖掘交友
acockburn对bucolic说: and then applying what they said on a few projects of my own.(11:03)
bucolic对acockburn说: i think you are perfer to have prototype very much.(11:03) 数据挖掘工具
acockburn对bucolic说: The ideas in that book really work - they were told to me by successful teams, I tried them myself.(11:04) 数据挖掘研究院
acockburn对bucolic说: "Prototype" is a word I stay away from.(11:04) 数据挖掘论坛
bucolic对acockburn说: can I purchase this book?(11:04)
acockburn对bucolic说: The point is not to "prototype", but to get "feedback"(11:04) 数据挖掘实验室
charles_y对acockburn说: where to find your book,is it on stock now?(11:04) 数据挖掘工具
acockburn对bucolic说: The problem with the word "prototype"is that nobody knows if it should be thrown away or not(11:05)
acockburn对bucolic说: I generally don"t like throwaway prototypes, unless they are made out of paper.(11:05) 数据挖掘实验室
acockburn对bucolic说: Because it if is made with a programming language, the sponsors won"t let you throw it away!(11:05) 数据挖掘研究院
rjcludy对acockburn说: Can you tell me how to juge the user case"s granularity is best?? thank you very much!(11:05) 数据挖掘实验室
acockburn对bucolic说: So I almost never use the word prototype.(11:06) 数据挖掘论坛
bucolic对acockburn说: oh, then your "prototype" can change to product.(11:06) 数据挖掘实验室
acockburn对bucolic说: Insted, build a very small piece of the system.(11:06) 数据挖掘论坛
acockburn对bucolic说: Build it correctly, full production strength.(11:06) 数据挖掘交友
charles_y对acockburn说: The most confusing problem is where to start ?(11:06) 数据挖掘工具
acockburn对bucolic说: Now it is not a prototype. It is an "increment", a piece of the final system.(11:06)
acockburn对bucolic说: You add onto the increment, so that you throw away (waste) very little.(11:07) 数据挖掘论坛
fuzhong对acockburn说: should you tell me your email? communion is not ended today.(11:07) 数据挖掘论坛
bucolic对acockburn说: oh, our problem is the prototype is uncorrect, then we have to abandon it.(11:07) 数据挖掘实验室
acockburn对bucolic说: Incremental growth is better than throwaway prototyping (except when the prototype is made of paper)(11:07) 数据挖掘论坛
acockburn对bucolic说: Both provide the really important thing; feedback.(11:08) 数据挖掘研究院
acockburn对charles_y说: CHARLES_Y: nice question.(11:08) 数据挖掘工具
bucolic对acockburn说: when I got the feedback , should I redesign some use case or just change those implement?(11:08)
acockburn对charles_y说: Where to start?(11:09) 数据挖掘实验室
acockburn对charles_y说: The 3 criteria for starting:(11:09) 数据挖掘研究院
acockburn对charles_y说: - it should provide (a tiny amount of) value to the users.(11:09) 数据挖掘工具
acockburn对charles_y说: - it should be possible to build in 2 months.(11:09) 数据挖掘交友
acockburn对charles_y说: - it should be quite easy.(11:10) 数据挖掘交友
acockburn对charles_y说: If you build something, small, easy, a little bit useful, in 2 months,(11:10) 数据挖掘实验室
acockburn对charles_y说: then your users and sponsors will know you are doing them some good,(11:10) 数据挖掘工具
acockburn对charles_y说: and the team will have practice actually producing a product.(11:11) 数据挖掘研究院
acockburn对charles_y说: Both of those are extremely important.(11:11)
bucolic对acockburn说: how do you think of the method of xp?(11:11) 数据挖掘实验室
acockburn对charles_y说: Once you have something small and useful, you should see if you can find the worst problem facing you,(11:11) 数据挖掘工具
acockburn对charles_y说: and see if you can conquer it. You get another 2 months.(11:11) 数据挖掘工具
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: why in slient?(11:11)
acockburn对charles_y说: The way to find what to build is to build two lists:(11:12) 数据挖掘论坛
acockburn对charles_y说: What the user wants, and what technologies are going to be used.(11:12)
acockburn对charles_y说: You then choose the easiest thing that will show some value, and the hardest thing, that will kill your project.(11:13) 数据挖掘交友
acockburn对charles_y说: Does that help you with your question?(11:13) 数据挖掘论坛
acockburn对bucolic说: XP: You will notice that XP does all these things I say.(11:13) 数据挖掘工具
charles_y对acockburn说: yes ,thank you ,but how if you have no easy project?(11:13) 数据挖掘研究院
acockburn对bucolic说: So I think XP is very good, except that you must also produce some documentation,(11:14) 数据挖掘工具
acockburn对bucolic说: ... either along the way or after.(11:14)
bucolic对acockburn说: yeah, I found it, so I ask this question.(11:14)
acockburn对bucolic说: But if you produce no documentation, then the project will be in trouble within 6 months of it being delivered.(11:14) 数据挖掘论坛
bucolic对acockburn说: en, but to develop the big project , xp can"t work.(11:14)
acockburn对charles_y说: Please help me - what do you mean if you have no easy project?(11:15) 数据挖掘研究院
fuzhong对acockburn说: documentation means communication?(11:15) 数据挖掘交友
charles_y对acockburn说: can you tell me where to buy the book you mentioned?(11:15) 数据挖掘实验室
acockburn对bucolic说: Bucolic: please tell me what you mean by "big" project, and why XP can"t work for it?(11:15)
charles_y对acockburn说: thanks ,i understand what you mean now(11:15) 数据挖掘论坛
bucolic对acockburn说: a big program , we perfer to use rup.(11:16)
品雪对acockburn说: argee 2 month and easy(11:16) 数据挖掘实验室
charles_y对acockburn说: i think you mean i should find a easy part,and work on it(11:16)
acockburn对charles_y说: I don"t live in Beijing, so I can"t say where to buty the book. Ask UMLCHINA, who is translatingthe book into Chinese(11:16) 数据挖掘交友
fuzhong对acockburn说: or documentation means communication and design both?(11:16) 数据挖掘实验室
acockburn对charles_y说: Yesthat it what I mean ("i think you mean i should find a easy part,and work on it")(11:17) 数据挖掘工具
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: I have a software based on mainfram and plant to replant to J2ee. would you give me some suggestiuons?(11:17) 数据挖掘论坛
bucolic对acockburn说: if a project team has more than 10, it"s not effective with xp, it"s my thought.(11:17)
bucolic对acockburn说: more than 10 members(11:18) 数据挖掘研究院
acockburn对fuzhong说: In this case, documentation means something you can store, and retrieve 6 months later. Can be on paper or online.(11:18) 数据挖掘实验室
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: it is a very large system. where do I start from?(11:18) 数据挖掘交友
acockburn对bucolic说: Right. XP only works with up to 12 developers sitting at 6 workstations in 1 room.(11:18) 数据挖掘论坛
acockburn对bucolic说: But you have to take into account, those 12 programmers will probably produce the same amount of system as 35 programmers(11:19) 数据挖掘交友
bucolic对acockburn说: is it enoutg to document only with uml?(11:19) 数据挖掘论坛
acockburn对bucolic说: ...who are not sitting in the same room and are trying to use RUP and UML.(11:19) 数据挖掘研究院
acockburn对bucolic说: So "big" is a bit of a difficult word with XP.(11:19)
acockburn对bucolic说: The project I visited, 10 programmers did in one year what 26 had failed to do the previous year.(11:20) 数据挖掘交友
bucolic对acockburn说: enough. sorry type mistaken(11:20) 数据挖掘工具
acockburn对bucolic说: So be careful, there are "big" problems and there are "big" teams.(11:20) 数据挖掘交友
hacker_jiang对acockburn说: How to manage a system’s documentation?(11:20)
acockburn对bucolic说: "big" teams often are so inefficient that a small team working efficiently can do the same work.(11:20)
acockburn对bucolic说: However, your point is still true... at some point there will be a system that 12 XP people in a room cannot build.(11:21)
acockburn对bucolic说: At that point, one must split the team, use some XP practices, replace other ones...(11:21) 数据挖掘实验室
bucolic对acockburn说: you are right, but maybe the schedual or the size of project, we have to use more people.(11:21)
acockburn对bucolic说: .. perhaps teh resul is XP, perhaps not. I think it will not be.(11:21) 数据挖掘实验室
acockburn对bucolic说: ... but many of the XP practices can still be useful along the way.(11:22) 数据挖掘实验室
bucolic对acockburn说: you are right.(11:22) 数据挖掘交友
acockburn对bucolic说: I have never seen it sufficient to document only with UML(11:22) 数据挖掘研究院
acockburn对bucolic说: There are things people want to "say" to each other, that they want to say in ordinary language.(11:23) 数据挖掘实验室
bucolic对acockburn说: if we follow the rule of rup, its documents are enough?(11:23) 数据挖掘工具
acockburn对bucolic说: ... such as "I"m really want to make this look a lot like a pizza delivery system, so that"s why my design looks the way it does."(11:23)
bucolic对acockburn说: you mean sometime we shouldn"t follow a template to make a document?(11:24)
acockburn对qingzuozhou说: I don"t know enough about J2EE to be useful, sorry.(11:24) 数据挖掘论坛
bucolic对acockburn说: just record what I should record.(11:24) 数据挖掘实验室
acockburn对bucolic说: OK NEW TOPIC: DOCUMENTATION(11:24) 数据挖掘实验室
umlchina对acockburn说: What is your opionion about some use cases like "Create ***", "read ***", "update ***", "Delete ***"(11:25)
acockburn对bucolic说: This is a difficult topic, and I find it tiring, but I"ll do what I can(11:25) 数据挖掘研究院
acockburn对bucolic说: RUP probably permits all and every kind of documentation known to Man (does it include videotapes? probably)(11:25) 数据挖掘研究院
bucolic对acockburn说: you know in rup, it difine some document template.(11:25) 数据挖掘实验室
fuzhong对acockburn说: DOCUMENTATION is the kernel,all in software?(11:26) 数据挖掘论坛
bucolic对acockburn说: sometimes I want to follow it to make document.(11:26)
acockburn对umlchina说: (A little more on use cases: Create/Retrieve/Update/Delete use cases CRUD use cases)(11:26) 数据挖掘论坛
bucolic对acockburn说: but I find some of them are not useful.(11:26) 数据挖掘研究院
gigix对大家说: Hello to everybody.(11:26)
acockburn对umlchina说: (I try to write all four in one use case, to reduce the number of use cases we have to track.(11:26) 数据挖掘实验室
acockburn对umlchina说: (one of my friends really dislikes that I do that. She likes to have them all separate,(11:27) 数据挖掘研究院
gigix对大家说: How do you do? Mr. Cockburn.(11:27) 数据挖掘研究院
acockburn对umlchina说: (so that she can track the development, and security issues for each separately(11:27) 数据挖掘交友
acockburn对umlchina说: (each of us thinks the other person is doing it wrong :-)(11:28) 数据挖掘工具
dengzh对大家说: Hello Everyone(11:28) 数据挖掘交友
acockburn对umlchina说: (but that"s OK, because we both know how to make projects successful in the end!)(11:28) 数据挖掘工具
bucolic对acockburn说: another problem ,how to track the use case.(11:28)
acockburn对umlchina说: back to documentation.(11:28) 数据挖掘论坛
acockburn对umlchina说: RUP defines many templates. that is good.(11:28)
acockburn对umlchina说: But if you try to use them all, that is bad.(11:28)
acockburn对umlchina说: They give you a "library" of templates.(11:29)
acockburn对umlchina说: When you go the the library, you don"t try to read all the books,(11:29) 数据挖掘交友
bucolic对acockburn说: it means I should trim the document templates(11:29) 数据挖掘实验室
acockburn对umlchina说: When you go to the store to buy some legal forms, you don"t buy all of them.(11:29) 数据挖掘工具
acockburn对umlchina说: You read what you need to read, you buy what you need to buy.(11:29) 数据挖掘实验室
acockburn对umlchina说: The same with document templates.(11:30) 数据挖掘交友
acockburn对umlchina说: You use the ones you need. You leave the others in teh RUP library.(11:30)
acockburn对umlchina说: Of course, you realize, we just came back to skill again.(11:30) 数据挖掘实验室
bucolic对acockburn说: i am afraid I think it needn"t read or buy, but in fact it should read or buy(11:30) 数据挖掘工具
acockburn对umlchina说: It takes some judgement and some practice to decide which ones you need.(11:30) 数据挖掘工具
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: as I know , there many documents no body see them again when the project finished. which should be ducomentized?(11:30) 数据挖掘工具
acockburn对umlchina说: If you take too many, you slow down the project, without particularly doing it any good.(11:31) 数据挖掘工具
acockburn对umlchina说: I prefer to take fewer, and let people decide they need more.(11:31) 数据挖掘研究院
acockburn对umlchina说: Most useful documentation seem to be the following:(11:31) 数据挖掘研究院
bucolic对acockburn说: if really need , then add?(11:31)
acockburn对umlchina说: UI - the flow and connection between screens (use a sort of state machine or statechart to show this)(11:32) 数据挖掘实验室
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: many documents are produced by the software enginnering.(11:32) 数据挖掘实验室
umlchina对acockburn说: professor, your answer is not for me--just click the right person(11:32) 数据挖掘实验室
acockburn对umlchina说: Architecture: use components and their interactions. Add a sentence of text to each major component to show its purpose in life(11:32)
bucolic对acockburn说: you know now the project with web page is popular, can I use static web page to present the UI?(11:32)
acockburn对umlchina说: OO Design: the class diagram, and a few sample sequence charts.(11:33) 数据挖掘论坛
acockburn对umlchina说: not too many sequence charts, because they get out of date very quickly.(11:33) 数据挖掘研究院
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: but many of them are no useful. on the other side, when I need maintenance the system , I also didn"t find thing whic I need.(11:33) 数据挖掘工具
acockburn对umlchina说: (using the web page - Yes use anything and everything that speeds your work and communicates with your readers)(11:34) 数据挖掘研究院
acockburn对umlchina说: Database: Database Schema, or entity-relationship-diagram.(11:34)
bucolic对acockburn说: sometimes I can get the operation of class from sequence charts.(11:34) 数据挖掘论坛
acockburn对umlchina说: Requirements: Use cases + required data formats crossing the system boundaries.(11:34) 数据挖掘工具
acockburn对umlchina说: Architecture: Connections to other systems.(11:35)
acockburn对umlchina说: (correct - I like to design directly in sequence charts - they help me think through the behavior)(11:35) 数据挖掘交友
acockburn对umlchina说: Architecture: there should be a short (1-5 pages) document of text and some drawings in which the architect or lead designer(11:36) 数据挖掘实验室
acockburn对umlchina说: ..."explains" in words how thesystem is structured and works.(11:36) 数据挖掘研究院
acockburn对umlchina说: ...These words fill in all the little gaps of expression that fall through the UML diagrams.(11:37)
bucolic对acockburn说: in general.if architecture should design by one person?(11:37)
acockburn对bucolic说: Sorry, Bucolic, I was answer your question all that time, ddidn"t notice that my target address was naming UMLCHINA.(11:38)
acockburn对bucolic说: beg your pardon.(11:38) 数据挖掘工具
acockburn对bucolic说: Most people say only one person, but i was on a 40person project, and we used three of us as an architecture team, and it worked fine.(11:39)
bucolic对acockburn说: sorry.(11:39) 数据挖掘论坛
acockburn对bucolic说: So I think it can be done.(11:39) 数据挖掘研究院
acockburn对大家说: OK, 20 minutes left. What is the next topic, or what topic do you want to return to?(11:41) 数据挖掘研究院
bucolic对acockburn说: any other"s question?(11:41) 数据挖掘研究院
bucolic对acockburn说: can I ask the last question?(11:41) 数据挖掘交友
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: when I use UML express the requirement, should I throw away the old technology such as flow-chart, E-R digram etc?(11:41) 数据挖掘研究院
umlchina对acockburn说: In a modeling tool such as Rational Rose, we can"t put the system boundary box on a use-case diagram. system boundary is missing from the diagram. Is it a right choice?(11:42) 数据挖掘交友
acockburn对umlchina说: Interesting you say that about the use case diagram.(11:42) 数据挖掘论坛
nix00000对acockburn说: The detail design of UC.(11:42) 数据挖掘工具
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: tell the difference between UC and the old expressing methods for requirements(11:43) 数据挖掘工具
acockburn对umlchina说: I didn"t know that Rose doesn"t show the system boundary.(11:43) 数据挖掘研究院
acockburn对umlchina说: Personally, I don"t care, but my friend with whom I disagree about CRUD use cases(11:43) 数据挖掘实验室
acockburn对umlchina说: really gets upset when that boundary line isn"t there (her name is Susan Lilly, maybe you saw her article(11:43)
acockburn对umlchina说: on 10 mistakes in writing use cases? that was one of them)(11:43) 数据挖掘工具
ee96pyg对acockburn说: Can you talk about some keywords about evolution of use case?(11:44) 数据挖掘交友
acockburn对umlchina说: I"m afraid to say anything too negative about Rose,(11:44) 数据挖掘研究院
umlchina对大家说: yes(11:44) 数据挖掘交友
umlchina对acockburn说: yes(11:44) 数据挖掘交友
acockburn对umlchina说: particularly since I don"t specialize in CASE tools...(11:44) 数据挖掘交友
acockburn对umlchina说: but in my travels, I have not heard anyone recommend Rose over any other tools.(11:44) 数据挖掘交友
acockburn对umlchina说: I have, however, heard people recommend other tools over Rose,(11:45) 数据挖掘研究院
acockburn对umlchina说: and I have heard many complaints about Rose.(11:45) 数据挖掘交友
acockburn对umlchina说: So take your chances.(11:45) 数据挖掘论坛
acockburn对umlchina说: These days, what i hear people saying is that Together/J is a good tool(11:45) 数据挖掘工具
bucolic对acockburn说: I find it is difficult to convert analysis model to design model with rup, can you give me some suggestions?(11:45)
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: tell us about other tools(11:45) 数据挖掘交友
acockburn对umlchina说: and that it really permits you to move back and forth between the UML diagram and the code.(11:45) 数据挖掘研究院
umlchina对acockburn说: thanks!(11:45) 数据挖掘实验室
acockburn对umlchina说: To bothe umlchina and bucolic: you will find it revealing, in the context of these questions,(11:46) 数据挖掘研究院
acockburn对umlchina说: that I have *never* used Rational Rose.(11:46) 数据挖掘交友
qingzuozhou对acockburn说: Together/J"s website URL?(11:46) 数据挖掘实验室
acockburn对umlchina说: Why not? Because I don"t draw many UML diagrams.(11:46)
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